There was talk of creating an Orthodox rabbinical school but also opposed by Rashab and his son.
Places like Riga which followed the Hirschian line had a fine multi dimensional Orthodox community ,and I met several survivors Of course The son ranted and raved against their religious position after 1927 and then left to Warsaw .
I meant to look in Chabadapedia, thank you, There was a brother Leibl, listed in Gini? What's the dating issue? He could have stayed with someone. 6th drade.
as one who was ignorant of this gymnasium’s very existence, it’s hard for me to opine, but I have a very hard time believing they wouldn’t have a serious Haskala-type Hebrew curriculum. the fact that it is not reflected in this (amazing) certificate is not dispositive, as this examination and certificate were for the purpose of a university application. further research into the Ratner Gymnasium is needed.
As I commented in the post. It was certainly a standard preprinted form. Otherwise, why would they have their Закон Божий there? Not indicative of the subjects taken. Nevertheless, my criticism of TT still valid.
upon further reflection, I think it makes more sense to say that this paper does fully reflect the curriculum of the Gymnasium and that they did not study any Hebrew subjects. this appears to have been a university prep school for older kids(?). more and more, I realize that it is quite impossible for me to grasp the dimensions of Jewish life in the Russian Empire just a little over century ago. even in locations that are related to my own family's experiences. the gaps in knowledge are vast.
The attempt by Czar to create Jewish school system is a complex issue.It defies a single statement on a blog
Clearly Lilienthal realized he was shall we say a useful fool and fled.
Later on I don't know.
Indeed the problem was a total lack of secular education. Even in Congress Poland secular education existed in a minor fashion ie rabbis needed to know Russian ,the Mesivta in Warsaw had secular dept.
Our problem was the failure of the rabbinate to agree to govt demand that communal rabbis have a bit of secular knowledge to read ,write and preach in Russian and to establish more schools like the Kids yeshiva by Rav Reines
But I would not condemn Zemach Zedek,rather his grandson who fought against anything secular,against Shivat Zion,failed to take note of the condition of Jewish workers,opposed the Misnagdic yeshiva for their relative religious standards and ended up presiding over the total disintegration of Orthodox Judaism to Jews under 40 years of age,and as you indicate his own family included.
So people set the Jewish home on fire and then comes the RAMASH as the fire dept
We are not talking about the Rabbis. The question is not the secular education for Rabbis, rather Jewish education for the lay people. And Chabad opposed them both. When there was an opportunity to divert taxes towards Jewish education, Chabad opposition was criminal.
"Is Ratner the gymnasium Zalman Schneerson “never went to”? Or did he really, the truth now…"
who and why would question that fact that Zalman Schneerson attended a gymnasium? the story goes that he did attend and then insisted on leaving (how he 'insisted' is another story). and obviously he did leave, because by some point in his young life he was learning in Lubavitch... but attend he did. also, where would he have picked up his writer-level Russian?
[was it this Ratner Gymnasium he attended? perhaps, but was it the only one available in the immediate vicinity? obviously there was nothing of the sort in a place like Repka (aka Repki), but Repka is located smack between Homel and Chernihov, perhaps Chernihov also had a Gymnasium like that...]
You misread my comment all except the most poor went to cheer,many went to yeshiva to study Talmud,a few of these studied codes privately and became rabbis
Most Jewish males in Czarist Russia were literate. The problem davka was knowledge of Russian language .
Unlike western countries ,Eastern Europe did not draw a distinction in educating rabbis or laymen.Those few who were led to the rabbinate studies the codes privately.
No yeshiva I repeat no yeshiva had a rabbinical training program.Thus if yeshivoth had some secular Ed it would effect lay people and rabbis in Czarist Russia.
That was the problem. They could not even conceive of Jewish studies but for Rabbis. Lay people did not need Jewish studies. As a result, it was complete legit to have a Jewish gymnasium with zero Jewish subjects.
Let's forget about the alte him but today most schools run by Shabad have NO secular studies and their graduates tend to be people who claim knowledge of science ,philosophy,languages in reality they usually are idiots,fools and hucksters
Let's not forget about the old country. The way Tzemach laid out this history is informative of what is happening here and today. Ideology uber ales, and basic instruction in the Jewish education be damned. This is how yeshivas operate. The alternative is clear.
There was talk of creating an Orthodox rabbinical school but also opposed by Rashab and his son.
Places like Riga which followed the Hirschian line had a fine multi dimensional Orthodox community ,and I met several survivors Of course The son ranted and raved against their religious position after 1927 and then left to Warsaw .
What was the father's name of Fishel and Isaac Schneerson? If Zalman, maybe this Mendel is another brother?
Zalman is, in fact, the father of Fishel and Isaac https://www.geni.com/people/Zalman-Schneerson/4642102236610064391
But Fishel and Isaac had no bother named Mendel, it seems.
yes, they did have a bother named Mendel. he died "in his youth", but not before getting some doctoral degree, apparently:
ר' ד"ר מענדל שניאורסון (נפטר בצעירותו)
from here:
https://chabadpedia.co.il/index.php/%D7%A9%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%90%D7%95%D7%A8_%D7%96%D7%9C%D7%9E%D7%9F_%D7%A9%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%90%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%9F_(%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%9F_%D7%90%D7%93%D7%9E%D7%95%22%D7%A8_%D7%94%D7%A6%D7%9E%D7%97_%D7%A6%D7%93%D7%A7)
ר' ד"ר מענדל שניאורסון (נפטר בצעירותו)
I wonder were this info from? How do they know and what do they know?
but there are some dating issues with this theory — Zalman didn't move to Homel until years after the birth year of this Mendel...
I meant to look in Chabadapedia, thank you, There was a brother Leibl, listed in Gini? What's the dating issue? He could have stayed with someone. 6th drade.
What is the dating issue? He started Gymnasium in 6th grade.
as one who was ignorant of this gymnasium’s very existence, it’s hard for me to opine, but I have a very hard time believing they wouldn’t have a serious Haskala-type Hebrew curriculum. the fact that it is not reflected in this (amazing) certificate is not dispositive, as this examination and certificate were for the purpose of a university application. further research into the Ratner Gymnasium is needed.
As I commented in the post. It was certainly a standard preprinted form. Otherwise, why would they have their Закон Божий there? Not indicative of the subjects taken. Nevertheless, my criticism of TT still valid.
upon further reflection, I think it makes more sense to say that this paper does fully reflect the curriculum of the Gymnasium and that they did not study any Hebrew subjects. this appears to have been a university prep school for older kids(?). more and more, I realize that it is quite impossible for me to grasp the dimensions of Jewish life in the Russian Empire just a little over century ago. even in locations that are related to my own family's experiences. the gaps in knowledge are vast.
I have been reading your comments long enough to know that when you use “dispositive” something fishie comes up.
Yes, I thought of it. Not conclusive either way. Maybe the Jewish subjects is something you do at home.
probably not too hard to find out what they did there. but generally the “maskilim” certainly didn’t leave the study of Hebrew (subjects) to the home.
I found some pictures of the old gymnasium, impressive. I should say beautiful.
https://dzen.ru/a/YuDND3DOQEUCMTyL
But I have no idea what they taught there.
The attempt by Czar to create Jewish school system is a complex issue.It defies a single statement on a blog
Clearly Lilienthal realized he was shall we say a useful fool and fled.
Later on I don't know.
Indeed the problem was a total lack of secular education. Even in Congress Poland secular education existed in a minor fashion ie rabbis needed to know Russian ,the Mesivta in Warsaw had secular dept.
Our problem was the failure of the rabbinate to agree to govt demand that communal rabbis have a bit of secular knowledge to read ,write and preach in Russian and to establish more schools like the Kids yeshiva by Rav Reines
But I would not condemn Zemach Zedek,rather his grandson who fought against anything secular,against Shivat Zion,failed to take note of the condition of Jewish workers,opposed the Misnagdic yeshiva for their relative religious standards and ended up presiding over the total disintegration of Orthodox Judaism to Jews under 40 years of age,and as you indicate his own family included.
So people set the Jewish home on fire and then comes the RAMASH as the fire dept
We are not talking about the Rabbis. The question is not the secular education for Rabbis, rather Jewish education for the lay people. And Chabad opposed them both. When there was an opportunity to divert taxes towards Jewish education, Chabad opposition was criminal.
"Is Ratner the gymnasium Zalman Schneerson “never went to”? Or did he really, the truth now…"
who and why would question that fact that Zalman Schneerson attended a gymnasium? the story goes that he did attend and then insisted on leaving (how he 'insisted' is another story). and obviously he did leave, because by some point in his young life he was learning in Lubavitch... but attend he did. also, where would he have picked up his writer-level Russian?
[was it this Ratner Gymnasium he attended? perhaps, but was it the only one available in the immediate vicinity? obviously there was nothing of the sort in a place like Repka (aka Repki), but Repka is located smack between Homel and Chernihov, perhaps Chernihov also had a Gymnasium like that...]
"Descendant (?) of the “honorary citizen” [TT?]" —
it is: "Hereditary Honorary Citizen" ("потомственный почетный гражданин")
You misread my comment all except the most poor went to cheer,many went to yeshiva to study Talmud,a few of these studied codes privately and became rabbis
Most Jewish males in Czarist Russia were literate. The problem davka was knowledge of Russian language .
Unlike western countries ,Eastern Europe did not draw a distinction in educating rabbis or laymen.Those few who were led to the rabbinate studies the codes privately.
No yeshiva I repeat no yeshiva had a rabbinical training program.Thus if yeshivoth had some secular Ed it would effect lay people and rabbis in Czarist Russia.
That was the problem. They could not even conceive of Jewish studies but for Rabbis. Lay people did not need Jewish studies. As a result, it was complete legit to have a Jewish gymnasium with zero Jewish subjects.
Let's forget about the alte him but today most schools run by Shabad have NO secular studies and their graduates tend to be people who claim knowledge of science ,philosophy,languages in reality they usually are idiots,fools and hucksters
Let's not forget about the old country. The way Tzemach laid out this history is informative of what is happening here and today. Ideology uber ales, and basic instruction in the Jewish education be damned. This is how yeshivas operate. The alternative is clear.
Education to the masses! There is no other way.