It starts from the top,no spiritual leaders, no Rebbe just find raisers,PR men,tummlers everything you say is correct but who cares about these idiots. The problem is no leaders no vision,no spirituality and new autocratic families all fighting to replace the Romanovs
Reb Zalman. I was pondering for a while now weather to respond to your frequent accusations that "nobody learns in Chabad, nobody introspects etc." for one simple reason - it is not true. And this common hysterical outcry of yours bothers me for a reason. I do learn things from your comments and podcasts, and when you say something so obviously removed from reality it casts doubt on your otherwise very interesting and enlightening ideas. I cannot quantify the number of people who follow the old Chabad way, but I do see that at least in NYC area these people comprise, at the very least, a מיעוט מצוי, very מצוי.
I think Zalman, like I, has little connection with real people anymore. I have 0 connections. Faced with such isolation, you start to hallucinate. Reality, whatever it is, recedes to the preconceives notions.
I live in a location with over 159 so called Shabadf families and a large mesifta and zal. BH I ain't blind or deaf.
The main shul only had a few throw away shiurim between tefillos very poorly attended.
Talking during davening is the norm. The biggest Talmid chochom gets very little derech eretz there and he too is now a real estatnik
I have visited some Shabad houses ,yes they have Likute Sichos Vols but a Shaas,Ma'anm dekorei shmeh!
As a Rav friend of mine who as a kosher expert has travelled widely said no where in Shabad house do people study gefes rather they are studying Tanya and always on the same page
Next I was in charge of a large section of a major Judaica library ,I saw yarchonim with pilpulim,chidushim from Satmar Bobov Belz, etc but gornit from the chassiuth who lives via publicity called Chabad,is it a coincidence that Rabbis Heller,Braun,Wechter
both Oberlanders the Rosh of Morristown and others are not products of Chabad,just a coincidence. I bet a Arrow shirt
Pardon me for telling you this but many shluchim with the title Rav hachasid hatamim are close to being ami aratzim.
You guys need to establish a normative yeshiva. Where guys sit and learn beretzifus not take breaks to distribute Neshek to half naked girls on campus.
Of course there are a small minority who can learn like Berel Levine and others but most of your friends are mechadesh new PR styles and fund raising maayses,every Chabad guy I know either raised money or makes a chillul Hashem by slum lording or by the Shabad zaddik SB Rubaskin by the way why don't you make him your Rebbe?
On you tube you can see a bachur bitching as to why there are sifre nigle in 770 and showing his gross boorishness by mispronouncing the name of the Chasam Sofer.
Shall I go on?
I see you guys daily,you are like the Clint Eastwood movie the good,the bad and the ugly,and you don't have Eastwood to clean things up I have nothing more to add about this except I repeat you guys need to take a time out and do a cheshbon hanefesh ,maybe learn mussar behislahavus and reimagine your whole outlook,go back to authentic Chabad not to a system invented by a man who spent his formative years in the universities in Berlin and the tameydike city of Paris imbibing those cultures but I digress here,at least he knew how to learn
(I am not sure who you mean by "you guys".) Your description is accurate, yet incomplete. I am afforded an access into this culture through my son, who is in his early twenties, and after spending his formative years in a Brisker yeshiva he has gone to Brunoy. I must admit that I was very pleasantly surprised to see his "Chevra". These are serious boys who daven and learn in earnest. I care not about upholding the "kovod of Chabad", it is just the lopsided reality of your account that must be corrected.
That's the influence of Reb Nissan and his followers.
More than a few letters have been published in KFAR Chabad magazine from the Rebbe highly critical of old Lubavitch in tel Aviv ,Jslm etc for spending time studying Dach and not being tractoristin and bizuistin,comments typical of an...engineer not a man of the mind a kop mentch.
I have studied modern Jewish history intensely and imo lubavitz today is in real time the haskolah of about 2850s in Galicia,except those guys were at least secularly educated.
Those exceptions prove nothing other than the existence of those exceptions, which in my experience is a מיעוט מצוי. That's it. Nothing else to say on this topic.
Ilya, I second your report. I would say that about 50% of boys graduating the current American Lubavitch educational system are close to functionally illiterate, another 25% have only extremely rudimentary learning skills (Talmud only with the help of English ArtScroll). The remaining 25% range from the boys who possess the basic independent Talmud-learning skills to the very learned (the latter group seems to be under 10% of the student body, but are really impressive and some of that small minority are quite advanced).
On the one hand, these are not good numbers, but on the other hand, as this is a mass culture (and as such, for the most part an anti-intellectual one), I question whether a lager % of the intellectual elite can really be expected.
(I would say that unless a totally different curriculum is created for those 50%, or even the 75%, they will continue getting nothing or little from of their yeshivah education. But that is not the topic you are discussing.)
"Heimshe"world is not much different - the only difference is that 50% do not even know לשון הקודש well. Yeshiva Litva k world is better, but, they git other issues
Getting back to the subject, it is interesting what Rabbi Green will accomplish on the farm, where his kids are obviously homeschooled. I would say he is above average in his knowledge. Certainly, more advanced than 95% of the Shulchim here.
Leaving aside the socialization aspect, it should not be too difficult for a person like Green to homeschool his children. I actually think that for education purposes this isolation from the system could be very beneficial for his boys. It seems that the entire orthodox world, very much including Chabad and its late leader, were sold this idea by the "Yeshivish" leaders that התורה איתנו. Going back to the basics of learning, simple, even primitive learning for the very young can tremendously benefit these children. Going away from Brooklyn yeshivah halls where they allegedly produce "gedolim" to a Kentucky farm where they will learn basic Jewish texts and ideas must be refreshing!
The cursed "pilpul method" applied to all regardless of age, intellectual abilities and personal tendencies רבים חללים הפילה ועצמים כל־הרגיה.
Bordering on pure evil famous letter by Eliyahu Dessler is still very much quoted and admired.
Great idea, but, sadly not possible for most. We have to use the facilities that exist to the best of our abilities. My personal experience- my oldest son is a tremendous תלמיד חכם which is going thrugh shas second time , has successfull car leasing bussiness etc. My 2 other sons are illiterate as far as I am concerned. I guess that is 33%. I do not think lubavich is any worse ( I do have pretty close ties)
It starts from the top,no spiritual leaders, no Rebbe just find raisers,PR men,tummlers everything you say is correct but who cares about these idiots. The problem is no leaders no vision,no spirituality and new autocratic families all fighting to replace the Romanovs
Wanted to this off my chest. Because it affects me personally. Like it impacts you as well. This is a plague.
It takes time to craft a post like that.
Back to basics.
Shlichis to the unchurched was yesh meayin invented by last leader of Chabad.
What ever happened to avodah,hisbonenus,introspection,eyn old milvado ??
It's all about $$ today and ego.Does anyone learn in Chabad does anyone stop for 5 minutes for a cheshbon hanefesh ?
It's now a pseudo cult run by men who are vayt vayt fun ruchnius.vehu rachum... Reb Zemach keep up good work.
Reb Zalman. I was pondering for a while now weather to respond to your frequent accusations that "nobody learns in Chabad, nobody introspects etc." for one simple reason - it is not true. And this common hysterical outcry of yours bothers me for a reason. I do learn things from your comments and podcasts, and when you say something so obviously removed from reality it casts doubt on your otherwise very interesting and enlightening ideas. I cannot quantify the number of people who follow the old Chabad way, but I do see that at least in NYC area these people comprise, at the very least, a מיעוט מצוי, very מצוי.
I think Zalman, like I, has little connection with real people anymore. I have 0 connections. Faced with such isolation, you start to hallucinate. Reality, whatever it is, recedes to the preconceives notions.
Wait a second. Zemach and Ilya
I live in a location with over 159 so called Shabadf families and a large mesifta and zal. BH I ain't blind or deaf.
The main shul only had a few throw away shiurim between tefillos very poorly attended.
Talking during davening is the norm. The biggest Talmid chochom gets very little derech eretz there and he too is now a real estatnik
I have visited some Shabad houses ,yes they have Likute Sichos Vols but a Shaas,Ma'anm dekorei shmeh!
As a Rav friend of mine who as a kosher expert has travelled widely said no where in Shabad house do people study gefes rather they are studying Tanya and always on the same page
Next I was in charge of a large section of a major Judaica library ,I saw yarchonim with pilpulim,chidushim from Satmar Bobov Belz, etc but gornit from the chassiuth who lives via publicity called Chabad,is it a coincidence that Rabbis Heller,Braun,Wechter
both Oberlanders the Rosh of Morristown and others are not products of Chabad,just a coincidence. I bet a Arrow shirt
Pardon me for telling you this but many shluchim with the title Rav hachasid hatamim are close to being ami aratzim.
You guys need to establish a normative yeshiva. Where guys sit and learn beretzifus not take breaks to distribute Neshek to half naked girls on campus.
Of course there are a small minority who can learn like Berel Levine and others but most of your friends are mechadesh new PR styles and fund raising maayses,every Chabad guy I know either raised money or makes a chillul Hashem by slum lording or by the Shabad zaddik SB Rubaskin by the way why don't you make him your Rebbe?
On you tube you can see a bachur bitching as to why there are sifre nigle in 770 and showing his gross boorishness by mispronouncing the name of the Chasam Sofer.
Shall I go on?
I see you guys daily,you are like the Clint Eastwood movie the good,the bad and the ugly,and you don't have Eastwood to clean things up I have nothing more to add about this except I repeat you guys need to take a time out and do a cheshbon hanefesh ,maybe learn mussar behislahavus and reimagine your whole outlook,go back to authentic Chabad not to a system invented by a man who spent his formative years in the universities in Berlin and the tameydike city of Paris imbibing those cultures but I digress here,at least he knew how to learn
A freilichen Pesach
(I am not sure who you mean by "you guys".) Your description is accurate, yet incomplete. I am afforded an access into this culture through my son, who is in his early twenties, and after spending his formative years in a Brisker yeshiva he has gone to Brunoy. I must admit that I was very pleasantly surprised to see his "Chevra". These are serious boys who daven and learn in earnest. I care not about upholding the "kovod of Chabad", it is just the lopsided reality of your account that must be corrected.
That's the influence of Reb Nissan and his followers.
More than a few letters have been published in KFAR Chabad magazine from the Rebbe highly critical of old Lubavitch in tel Aviv ,Jslm etc for spending time studying Dach and not being tractoristin and bizuistin,comments typical of an...engineer not a man of the mind a kop mentch.
I have studied modern Jewish history intensely and imo lubavitz today is in real time the haskolah of about 2850s in Galicia,except those guys were at least secularly educated.
I do not know what those exceptions prove. There is Moshe Lieberman here. But there are 50 others shluchim, and they all come from a certain culture.
Those exceptions prove nothing other than the existence of those exceptions, which in my experience is a מיעוט מצוי. That's it. Nothing else to say on this topic.
Ilya, I second your report. I would say that about 50% of boys graduating the current American Lubavitch educational system are close to functionally illiterate, another 25% have only extremely rudimentary learning skills (Talmud only with the help of English ArtScroll). The remaining 25% range from the boys who possess the basic independent Talmud-learning skills to the very learned (the latter group seems to be under 10% of the student body, but are really impressive and some of that small minority are quite advanced).
On the one hand, these are not good numbers, but on the other hand, as this is a mass culture (and as such, for the most part an anti-intellectual one), I question whether a lager % of the intellectual elite can really be expected.
(I would say that unless a totally different curriculum is created for those 50%, or even the 75%, they will continue getting nothing or little from of their yeshivah education. But that is not the topic you are discussing.)
"Heimshe"world is not much different - the only difference is that 50% do not even know לשון הקודש well. Yeshiva Litva k world is better, but, they git other issues
Getting back to the subject, it is interesting what Rabbi Green will accomplish on the farm, where his kids are obviously homeschooled. I would say he is above average in his knowledge. Certainly, more advanced than 95% of the Shulchim here.
Leaving aside the socialization aspect, it should not be too difficult for a person like Green to homeschool his children. I actually think that for education purposes this isolation from the system could be very beneficial for his boys. It seems that the entire orthodox world, very much including Chabad and its late leader, were sold this idea by the "Yeshivish" leaders that התורה איתנו. Going back to the basics of learning, simple, even primitive learning for the very young can tremendously benefit these children. Going away from Brooklyn yeshivah halls where they allegedly produce "gedolim" to a Kentucky farm where they will learn basic Jewish texts and ideas must be refreshing!
The cursed "pilpul method" applied to all regardless of age, intellectual abilities and personal tendencies רבים חללים הפילה ועצמים כל־הרגיה.
Bordering on pure evil famous letter by Eliyahu Dessler is still very much quoted and admired.
I wish tons of luck to the Greens in this.
Incomplete .In this format for you expect a complete picture of Chabad.
As the heiliker Chofetz Chaim remarked es iz genung
as men rest dos darf noch Zayn an emes.
You guys as Wendell Wilkie told the GOP CONVENTION in 1940 -you Republicans no insult meant.
In my last comment should read 1850 in Galicia
Great idea, but, sadly not possible for most. We have to use the facilities that exist to the best of our abilities. My personal experience- my oldest son is a tremendous תלמיד חכם which is going thrugh shas second time , has successfull car leasing bussiness etc. My 2 other sons are illiterate as far as I am concerned. I guess that is 33%. I do not think lubavich is any worse ( I do have pretty close ties)
Nobody cares about this lomdus. This post is about a death of a large community. Can you be more tone-deaf. I know you can't.