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צמח's avatar

This 50 year chain reaction starts and ends in Iran.

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Zalman AlpertHi's avatar

You miss a major reaction.

The end of Zionism.Israel was to make Jews a nation like others. Instead we now have anti Semitism on a world level,with No safe havens as in the past ie US ,UK Canada.

I predict tens of thousands of Israelis leaving if not more.

Indeed Israel has no choice now but War,but how many people want to live like in Warsaw 1939.?

Yes I am cynical but there is much truth in what I state.

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Baruch Hasofer's avatar

אֶמְשׁוֹל לְךָ מָשָׁל, לְמָה הַדָּבָר דּוֹמֶה — לְשׁוּעָל שֶׁהָיָה מְהַלֵּךְ עַל גַּב הַנָּהָר, וְרָאָה דָּגִים שֶׁהָיוּ מִתְקַבְּצִים מִמָּקוֹם לְמָקוֹם. אָמַר לָהֶם: מִפְּנֵי מָה אַתֶּם בּוֹרְחִים? אָמְרוּ לוֹ: מִפְּנֵי רְשָׁתוֹת שֶׁמְּבִיאִין עָלֵינוּ בְּנֵי אָדָם. אָמַר לָהֶם: רְצוֹנְכֶם שֶׁתַּעֲלוּ לַיַּבָּשָׁה, וְנָדוּר אֲנִי וְאַתֶּם, כְּשֵׁם שֶׁדָּרוּ אֲבוֹתַי עִם אֲבוֹתֵיכֶם? אָמְרוּ לוֹ: אַתָּה הוּא שֶׁאוֹמְרִים עָלֶיךָ פִּקֵּחַ שֶׁבַּחַיּוֹת?! לֹא פִּקֵּחַ אַתָּה, אֶלָּא טִפֵּשׁ אַתָּה! וּמָה בִּמְקוֹם חִיּוּתֵנוּ, אָנוּ מִתְיָרְאִין, בִּמְקוֹם מִיתָתֵנוּ — עַל אַחַת כַּמָּה וְכַמָּה.

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Zalman AlpertHi's avatar

You ought to attribute this story or fable from it's source Of course you are aware of the Talmuds statement of reward for doing so.

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Baruch Hasofer's avatar

I think its source is obvious enough that it doesn't need attribution, especially in the age of Google.

The fact that the medina was created by meshumadim and continues to be run by them is not the point. The point is that the natural habitat for a Jew is Eretz Hakodesh.

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צמח's avatar

Zionists were not meshumadim, they were more traditional than you and I. It's the only movement that stood the test of time.

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Baruch Hasofer's avatar

Who was traditional, Berl Katznelson? Weissman? Herzl? Jabotinsky?

The Zionist movement has been dead for decades-they achieved their goal of a מקלט בטוח and then their kids decided that the important thing was startup exits and gay pride parades. Time for something new.

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צמח's avatar

No going to start a parallel argument.

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Zalman AlpertHi's avatar

You write as if Israel is a religious state or was created by believing Jews.

Indeed tens of thousands of Jews left Israel since 1948 including thousands of frum Jews like large numbers of chasidics Jews.Bklyn is full of frum yordim in areas like BP as a matter of fact IVRIT is the main language of Crown Heights.

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צמח's avatar

You contradict yourself.

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Zalman AlpertHi's avatar

I state that the Zionist enterprise is a failure.

More Jews have been killed fighting and by terror in Israel since 1947 than in the diaspora in the same time

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צמח's avatar

New Haven definitely been a success then.

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Baruch Hasofer's avatar

That's an interesting place to start the count. Reminds me of the Muslims drawing attention to the remarkably low number of Americans killed by Muslim terrorists-they always say something like "in the last 10/20 years."

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צמח's avatar
2dEdited

I am not sure it even factually true, if you count the Vietnam and Korean wars. Plus the wars and terror attacks I describe in the list.

My neighbor here participated in the invasion of Hungary on the Russian side. He is also a Jew. Many Russian Jews fought in Afghanistan. Many dead in the current Ukraine/Russian war. Who counts them?

Of course, assimilation doesn't count.

Zalman thinks the USSR has been good idea.

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Zalman AlpertHi's avatar

Excuse me,those Russian Jewish soldiers who died in the Ward you mention were not singled out for death as Jews.

By the way when should I start counting Jewish deaths from ?

Meshumodim - Reb Itches Mayer Lewin,Meir Berlin,R.Yeshayah Shapiro,Binyomin Mintz,,Rav Kook,R.Fishman-Maimon these are your meshumodim.

There is no doubt that the medina. Was necessary after the Holocaust.And it remains impt,but it is not the end all solution to anti Semitism ,assimilation and the gross misinterpretation of Orthodox Judaism perpretated by large sectors of the Israeli charedim world as if Jewish self defense is a sin,or carrying a gun a serious violation of halacha

This is total nonsense.If charedim live in Israel,why would you want "meshumodim" defending you after all we read that your camp should be holy and God will be with you,so is HE with these meshumodim.So either they are not meshumodim or God is not with them.

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Baruch Hasofer's avatar

Your style of prose and punctuation make your points difficult to parse. If I understand correctly, you are saying that the minority of Zionists who were religious were not meshumadim. That's true-but they were a minority and did not set policy. They also acted as junior partners in the worst excesses of the secular Zionists-the Season, kidnapping of Jewish children, etc.

Many of the Jewish soldiers who died in the war were, in fact, killed for being Jewish-for instance, my great-grandfather went missing in action by Bryansk in 1941, and if he fell into German captivity, was likely executed immediately, as was their policy.

The Zionist enterprise was successful in its main goal-the establishment of a (relatively) safe refuge for Jews. Having met that goal, it ceased to see a continuing reason to be a going concern.

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Zalman AlpertHi's avatar

Our host loves to tell us what he thinks we think,like the USSR being a good idea.Mr AT Loss take a look at Mr Begins English memoir at the intro and see what he says about USSR.MR Loss ,I have no idea where your parents were in 1941-45 probably in the Jewish front in Tashkent but my parents were in KZ camps liberated not by Black American soldiers but by Russian Red army.

Any cousins who survived were in Vilns partisan units supplied and led by Zimones a Jewish Communist .Did you ever here of hakoras Hatov ?

As far as NH is concerned it is of no concern to you as is my relationship to my late brother and you wonder why I won't talk to you- because you have no boundaries just like Trump.

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